General - Choice of Programming Language

[Andy]

I am in the process of coding my first major piece of offline software. I am using RealBasic under Windows currently but it is a cross-platform language.

What I am finding now I am close to the finish is some stupid things that I have to work around such as screen flicker as I resize the application container. And I see some solutions for other people's problems on support forums involving direct access to the underlying operating system.

I guess this is the price to pay for rapid application development using tools that screen you from the actual operating sytem interface (API).

I am now thinking that I should maybe use C++ / .Net or whatever for future applications so I am in direct contact with the operating system so I don't have to deal with bugs introduced in my shield-software ?

Like I am kind of shocked at how boring the interface to my application looks. But after checking what applications I have on my computer, I think I am dealing with some old-looking interface. Many Windows applications look very cool now and the stuff I am making looks like I need a ton of work to bring the graphics up to scratch.

I don't know if by diving into the C environment gets you this instant access to modern-looking apps or not? Let me know please...

By way of example, Windows Media Player has an excellent interface incorporating gradient fills on background images, overall nice color scheme in blue, super-cool list with alternate line shading and ... you have to see it 

[SensoVision]

Andy using C or other language isn't a straightforward way for applying new themes. If say truth I have no idea how new WMP looks like, maybe you can make screenshot so I can have better idea. I also doesn't have idea how these styles applied lately but I assume that this should be incorporated in API, and maybe RealBasic should also have some way to access them?
If you're looking only for IDE not just compiler application check out this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_integrated_development_environments#Free_Windows_IDEs
Also maybe it's worth checking software from Microsoft itslef(can't believe I'm suggesting this ) like Visual Studio or something, maybe it has a way to achieve what you wish.
sorry I couldn't be bigger help.

[Andy]

Thanks for the link, that could be handy if I want to find a new (Integrated Development Environment) IDE at some stage for maybe Linux.

Here are some visuals of Windows software:

WMP:


XML Notepad:
This is currently free software 

I started to make some toolbar icons to spice up my application, here is a screen shot of one of the panels (reduced in size):



I will probably add some kind of gradient fill below the icons to reduce the amount of the Win95-style brown/grey background.

Windows Vista is going to support 256x256 pixel icons so they will be useable well into the future are display technology improves. A site with examples of these high quality icons I found is: http://www.rw-designer.com/vista-icon

Personally 32x32 pixel icons are hard enough for me to design so I leave 256x256 to the artists 

[SensoVision]

Thanks for the link, that could be handy if I want to find a new (Integrated Development Environment) IDE at some stage for maybe Linux.

it has IDEs for Windows as well, or it's not what you were looking for?

Believe me or not, I believe that SiteSugu have best layout it could have, as it's development tool not some toy and it's main purpose should be creating of code, not entertaining of user, XML Notepad style is ok, and since you tell it's open source, maybe you can check how they have applied these styles?
Personally if I had such dilemma, I would develop software which wouldn't have it's unique look, but rather theme-able style which would be easily customized by OS theme.

PS I never really like WMP, I've used WinAMP all the time just because it work better and provided features was very handy. Maybe I just don't like when certain program look much different than others, and prefer all of them have similar skin?

[Andy]

it has IDEs for Windows as well, or it's not what you were looking for?

Yes that is the thing I like but it is important to have history behind a software development product that you will use to sell things. Also, a big user base to report bugs and drive the product to a bug free useable version is desireable rather than helping evolve some product. Don't get me wrong, but I am happy to pay for software that I can use as a tool to get a job done and not care about bugs.

Believe me or not, I believe that SiteSugu have best layout it could have,

I believe you (and thanks for the complement) since that is my aim, to make the software as easy and as productive as possible. It would be nice though to make it look as up to date as possible whilst sticking with standard user interface controls. I have to ensure that my software gives people a "wow" factor before they consider it's looks.

Some icons in programs are not immediately obvious as to their purpose and some are not used often. So I am only showing icons for functions that I think will be used alot and adding a text below to ensure people know what they are for. And everybody knows that the menu gives access to all the usual stuff such as New, Save As.. etc. which are not clicked very often during development.

Also, I used a memory card image for the "save" icon. I was trying to discover if Windows Vista is still using a Floppy disk  Surely, some young people now have never seen a floppy disk? I don't have any any more. Some people may relate this to the cadbury smash TV advert "they peel them with their metal knives" (potatoes) and boil them for x hours etc...

[Andy]

Is there any standard look to Linux apps that I could study? Or is it like the Wild West? Actually, the examples I posted all look very diferrent. So I'm wondering if there is some usuabilty/design guidline for Linux development?

[SensoVision]

Is there any standard look to Linux apps that I could study? Or is it like the Wild West? Actually, the examples I posted all look very diferrent. So I'm wondering if there is some usuabilty/design guidline for Linux development?

Andy, I think that it's more like Wild West not that there are no standards at all, there are two major libraries which gives you API to build application interfaces QT and GTK, first is utilized in KDE and another in GNOME, there is also a way to write application without them and use libraries which come with X.org which is base for GUI in Linux, but these applications usually look a bit ugly and it's rather hard to use X's functions IMHO as they are used to control things at low level when e.g. GTK(GIMP Toolkit) offers high level functions. Both desktop managers have it's own pros and cons, and each Linux user decide which one suits him better. Guess you need to check both and see which one is preferable for you(I prefer GNOME for it's look and stability, but KDE seems to have better IDE which could be more important thing for you). e.g. I doesn't have KDE installed but I'm using K3B which is great free burning tool which have as easy interface as Nero in Win.
BTW person in Linux can run application written for KDE in GNOME and vice versa, and run these applications from other Window managers as well, as long as they have runtime libraries of KDE or GNOME respectively installed.
BTW Some programs have very similar look to Windows applications.
Let me know if you got more questions on this subject.

[Andy]

Thanks for the detailed reply. It would be fun to code some simple utilty for Linux when I have time. Probably in the new year.

I wonder how similar the software development process is with windows?

In Windows, you fire up your IDE (Integrated Development Environment) such as Real Basic, Delphi, Visual Basic, C++ etc.

Then you have a basic window, a set of controls (buttons, edit field, static text, list box, image container etc.).

You drag and drop these items onto the window, arrange them on the canvas and set the initial properties such as size, position, text values and color.

Then you enter code for each of the events that you are interested in for each of the controls e.g. a mouse click on a PushButton or a drag and drop of some text file onto an edit field.

Then you run the code with breakpoints set to debug it

In the high level language I am using I am shielded from the underlying messaging system that Windows uses, so I don't have to code message handling routines unless I need to do things my IDE doesn't support as standard.

You mentioned Linux has standard API (Application Programming Interfaces) so this is a familiar thing we find in Windows too.

btw. I added the full version of some of the abbreviations such as API for the benefit of readers who may be interested to look at programming but are unfamiliar with the buzz words used.

[SensoVision]

I wonder how similar the software development process is with windows?

I didn't tried tools designed for QT so they could have different features but if it comes to GNOME I'll try to tell more or less how you can build application there.

In Windows, you fire up your IDE (Integrated Development Environment) such as Real Basic, Delphi, Visual Basic, C++ etc.

in Gnome you can use tool like Glade which have pallete of all available widgets with their properties and ways of handling actions, it should save your time so you don't have to write all functions by your hand.

Then you have a basic window, a set of controls (buttons, edit field, static text, list box, image container etc.).

You drag and drop these items onto the window, arrange them on the canvas and set the initial properties such as size, position, text values and color.

yes it's work in less or more same way. I've used to Delphi and Borland C builder, so once I've tried Glade I've had some troubles in accommodating to it, but after some time I've realized that it's a great tool which save a lot of time and nerves! and it's free of course

You mentioned Linux has standard API (Application Programming Interfaces) so this is a familiar thing we find in Windows too.

if you're referring to X.org API than I'm not sure if it's right tool for you, as from what I know there is no IDE for it which have features you've mentioned above, it's just gives you set of functions which you may use in your program.
Two other APIs (GTK and QT) are built above X.org and you probably need to choose one of them.

[Andy]

Again, thanks for the detailed help.

So "Glade" will be a 1st stop. I prefer to avoid API's and go for the higher-level productivity tools where I can since I don't develop games. So I don't need high speed except for the refresh of the resized application area (struggles for a word not involving "window").

[SensoVision]

yes, Glade could be one option but it will not isolate you from API totally. You still need to deal with functions anyway. BTW Glade come with nice help program called Devhelp which has a list of many functions along with descriptions of how to use them.

[Andy]

I think c# may be the best choice of programming language. It is supposed to be easy to code since things that make c++ difficult such as pointers and memory management are removed from the programmers responsibility. I started reading an excellent tutorial by Faraz Rasheed at http://www.programmersheaven.com/2/Les_CSharp_0 He has such enthusiasm for this language that you feel compelled to use it.

Unfortunately it is not yet compatible with Linux I think since it uses the .net framework from Microsoft. But the .net framework has been created to make a standard interface between different programming languages and the OS. So maybe somebody will produce a version of Linux.net???

Apparently most of Microsoft's investment is now in .Net so that alone is a good reason to learn some .net language. And it is likely to give you a headstart in developing Vista applications. At the moment, .Net applications need the .Net framework to be downloaded and installed before applications will run. But it is a free download and installs to XP.

I downloaded the free .Net SDK which includes all the developer documentation and classes.

Then I downloaded a free IDE called SharpDevelop from http://www.sharpdevelop.com/OpenSource/SD/ which is an open source development environment. This is something you can use instead of the expensive Visual Studio product.

With this I managed to quickly design a simple window with a push button and tick box. Then I compiled it to an application with a couple of mouse clicks.

This IDE was displaying the huge range of controls (visual elements to include on a window) available with the .Net framework and the vital SDK documentation to quickly access the documentation for the controls etc. So a nice shiny toy to play with in the new year